Give me that OLD TIME Religion... 1 Peter 3 ~ or ~
What Has Happened to the IMMUTABILITY of God and His Word?
Is the controversy over women as teachers and Pastors not a matter of the misogyny and misandry so long on the earth? How does God's Plan address matters of sin, confusion and disorder between the sexes among His own?
I remember an anecdote about a child's first visit to the dentist. The dentist had a word with mom when they arrived. He told her to bring the child into the treatment room, and when he told her to sit down, she was to sit down immediately without objection in a chair provided her. THEN he would tell the child to sit down in the BIG chair! As the example of obedience was set by mom, so the child would understand who had authority, yes, even more authority than mom. I suspect the result would have been the same if it had been dad instead of mom! That is how that dentist overcame the difficulties of having a child sit down.
How do we inspire others to obey? By being obedient.
I got to thinking after reading a glowing foreword written by Jack Hayford for a book. So I sent him my two cents worth. I got a reply from his office with a link to this article:
http://www.jackhayford.org/
The following is the body of my response.
What Has Happened to the IMMUTABILITY of God and His Word?
Is the controversy over women as teachers and Pastors not a matter of the misogyny and misandry so long on the earth? How does God's Plan address matters of sin, confusion and disorder between the sexes among His own?
I remember an anecdote about a child's first visit to the dentist. The dentist had a word with mom when they arrived. He told her to bring the child into the treatment room, and when he told her to sit down, she was to sit down immediately without objection in a chair provided her. THEN he would tell the child to sit down in the BIG chair! As the example of obedience was set by mom, so the child would understand who had authority, yes, even more authority than mom. I suspect the result would have been the same if it had been dad instead of mom! That is how that dentist overcame the difficulties of having a child sit down.
How do we inspire others to obey? By being obedient.
I got to thinking after reading a glowing foreword written by Jack Hayford for a book. So I sent him my two cents worth. I got a reply from his office with a link to this article:
http://www.jackhayford.org/
The following is the body of my response.
"If you look at verse 12 of 1 Timothy in the context of the whole Bible, you will see that Paul couldn't be prohibiting women from teaching, or even from teaching men. If he were, why would he, in another epistle, give rules for women to follow when they are prophesying? In 1 Corinthians 11:5, he is referring to prophetic utterances given in the midst of an entire congregation-one that includes men. And we know that prophecy can come by itself, or it can accompany either preaching or teaching. Therefore, Paul allows for the possibility of women speaking in church in the capacity of teacher." from A Woman's Place in Christ by Jack Hayford
My response:
God’s commands are not grievous, yet how we disagree and chafe, not yet fully trusting what a blessing obedience will bring!
1) Prophecy is inspired utterance, the speaking forth of the Lord's exact words. A woman who is a prophet ought not be forbidden that, yet the words she speaks are subject to the judgment of the prophets.
2) Teaching is a different matter, and teachers are held to God's judgment. They speak in the vernacular and they are not speaking saying "Thus saith the Lord." Teachers are instructors, they do not only spew facts, they give facts and words and questions with the purpose of instructing others, teaching them not just information, but how to "use" the information, how to live. People learn how to behave. A teacher is more responsible for the effect of his words that a prophet, for by the prophet the Lord Himself is responsible. (James 3) Because of this, and in view of Eve being deceived, and Adam being accountable for willful disobedience, and in light of the special assignment for the husband to rule, the pastors and teachers are to be men charged with leading the homes and churches. That is why women are to learn from their husbands, it puts the responsibility on the husband to lead the home and teach his wife. When we turn the women loose to rule and teach in the church, even when they are more advance in the Spiritual life than their husbands, the result seems invariable that men turn all their charge to lead into the wife's hands. Men become spiritual couch potatoes. I regret to say it but it leads to women barking from lecterns and pulpits like Drill Instructors.
3) If prophecy and teaching come in the same meeting, they need to be distinct as such. And because they come in the same meeting does not change that which is the commandment of the Lord.
I think this may be reinforced in the following verses:
Ephesians 5:25-27
American Standard Version (ASV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it;
26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word,
27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot
or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
John 17
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
17 Set them apart for holiness by means of the truth — your word is truth.
John 17
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
17 Set them apart for holiness by means of the truth — your word is truth.
This is not cleansing by the blood, but by the water of the word. I have not heard it taught but I see this as sanctification by the spoken word, and here a part of the charge given the husband for his wife as Christ carries it out for His Bride the church. Men are in general lazier beasts than women, and often "rule" by coercions than lead from their obedience to the Lord. In my view God has provided for men to be sanctified and perfected through these role assignments of leaders and teachers commanded for them! Women are in general characterized more by other sins. Submission to their husbands and leaders, and submission of the husbands to leaders is the context of our sanctification.
1 Corinthians 14
33 for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.
36 What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone?
37 If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.
38 But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 But let all things be done decently and in order.
A man can both prophecy and teach to the congregation. A woman may prophesy, or pray, and certainly sing. But how clear is it:
"let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord."
Paul does not forbid a woman from speaking or even teaching at home, but would not teaching a husband be unseemly? Should not a woman pray instead that her husband be taught in a way by other men that equips him to teach her? I heard a marvelous story where a spiritual woman was advised: Bring your questions to your husband and ask him what they mean. As I recall it wound up being the thing that saved him! Was that what Paul had in mind? "if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home." These are the commandments of the Lord. I have been in more than a few places where the women are in the meetings and the husbands at home, I think because they don't want to go to meeting and hear their wive speak while they have nothing to share. Put the men and women in meeting under this rule and let them speak without fear of being outshined or corrected by their wives publically.
How else are we to fathom: "for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church." and "with shamefacedness KJV (shamefastness ASV) and sobriety;"
http://www.blueletterbible.
Dare it be suggested that Adam was shamed by Eve's disobedience? He was by his own surely, and Eve by her own surely. Angels can't learn obedience. Jesus learned by the things He suffered. Is it to much to be asked or commanded to suffer what does go against the flesh, that women be silent and that we men learn to lead?
Dare it be suggested that Adam was shamed by Eve's disobedience? He was by his own surely, and Eve by her own surely. Angels can't learn obedience. Jesus learned by the things He suffered. Is it to much to be asked or commanded to suffer what does go against the flesh, that women be silent and that we men learn to lead?
4) Paul did give rules to women in another epistle for when they speak prophetically:
1 Corinthians 11
5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonoreth her head; for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven.
6 For if a woman is not veiled, let her also be shorn: but if it is a shame to a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be veiled.
This passage does not change the rules forbidding women to teach, not at all! Nor does the prohibition of women teachers change the rule of this passage!
First, let's see what the different verses in this passage do not mean.
That the women adorn themselves in modest apparel (v. 9). "All women should dress as crummy as possible to verify their holiness." from A Woman's Place in Christ by Jack Hayford
This was the first of seven verses from 1 Timothy 2:8-15 listed in order to see what they do not mean. With all due respect: Can we know what the scriptures do not mean if we do not know what they do mean???
First, let's see what the different verses in this passage do not mean.
That the women adorn themselves in modest apparel (v. 9). "All women should dress as crummy as possible to verify their holiness." from A Woman's Place in Christ by Jack Hayford
This was the first of seven verses from 1 Timothy 2:8-15 listed in order to see what they do not mean. With all due respect: Can we know what the scriptures do not mean if we do not know what they do mean???
1 Peter 3
American Standard Version (ASV)
3 In like manner, ye wives, be in subjection to your won husbands; that, even if any obey not the word, they may without the word be gained by the behavior of their wives;
2 beholding your chaste behavior coupled with fear.
3 Whose adorning let it not be the outward adorning of braiding the hair, and of wearing jewels of gold, or of putting on apparel;
4 but let it be the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible apparel of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner aforetime the holy women also, who hoped in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands:
6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose children ye now are, if ye do well, and are not put in fear by any terror.
7 Ye husbands, in like manner, dwell with your wives according to knowledge, giving honor unto the woman, as unto the weaker vessel, as being also joint-heirs of the grace of life; to the end that your prayers be not hindered.
8 Finally, be ye all likeminded, compassionate, loving as brethren, tenderhearted, humbleminded:
- Women who adorn themselves with "outward adorning of braiding the hair, and of wearing jewels of gold, or of putting on apparel." may do it out of pride or insecurity. Whatever their reasons we are generally able to identify when something is amiss in their motives.
- Women who adorn themselves with "the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible apparel of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price." Again we can identify those whose motives are pure.
For after this manner aforetime the holy women also, who hoped in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands: as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose children ye now are, if ye do well, and are not put in fear by any terror. (1 Peter 3:5,6)
I agree that women need not dress all the way down to abjectness. But in many cases church will seem unapproachable after a certain measure of style is applied by women AND men. I think we should dress in a way so that those living in the one mile radius of our sanctuaries would be comfortable among us. It is all about revealing God's glory, and whatever distracts from that will hinder the witness, the evidence that God is with us, and we with Him in Spirit and Truth.
PS:
from my first email with edits:
The gospel does mean that the arrangement of Gen. 3 is to be lived out under the greater revelation of God's Word, Plan and Love seen in the New Covenant scriptures / teaching. The husband is now charged with great benevolence toward his wife, and great sacrifice. Yet I can see nothing that allows women to hold offices which the Lord commands she not hold. The willing and joyful acceptance of these commands is a hallmark of the peculiarity of believers set over against the world. How peculiar! A trusting obedience of both husband and wife in their DISTINCTIVE roles demonstrates the relationship of the Lord ruling over the church. The husband’s sacrificial service, even teaching and when need be correcting his bride, and the brides joyful reverence for her husband by obeying him, each as a witness to the world that: The Lord is loved and that His Word is reverenced above the word that deceived Eve and to which Adam submitted.
The Messiah is the groom to us; bridegrooms are to groom their brides in the betrothal, yes? no? But no one thinks like this anymore do they? Men and Husbands need the Lord's grooming as they are part of the Messiah's Bride. Women play a role in this, but not a teaching role.
Not for my lengthy views and words but for the simply and literal meaning of the Scriptures: "...let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord."
The Messiah is the groom to us; bridegrooms are to groom their brides in the betrothal, yes? no? But no one thinks like this anymore do they? Men and Husbands need the Lord's grooming as they are part of the Messiah's Bride. Women play a role in this, but not a teaching role.
Not for my lengthy views and words but for the simply and literal meaning of the Scriptures: "...let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord."
The wife: as unto the Lord.
22 Wives, be in subjection unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
The husband: as the Messiah
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it;
Women are made in God's image. But they are different than men, and called to different ministries by God. I don't have a problem with women being successful, accomplished and enriched. But Paul forbids them teaching and wrestling authority from men. WHY? Because Eve was deceived. Yes? No?
The ONLY place that TEACHING AND RULING is forbidden by Paul is in the church assemblies, and that is PRECISELY where so many women are being elevated to teaching and ruling!!!
That men permit this does not seem to me what the Lord was commanding...
Submitted publically, in fear and trembling, for:
Submitted publically, in fear and trembling, for:
36 What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone?
37 If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.
38 But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant. 1 Corinthians 14
